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Post by Cole Geass on Mar 20, 2017 17:18:32 GMT
I don't know if anyone on this forum is a Dragon Ball Z fan, and if not, that's fine, i'm just more or less looking for a place to document this. In the popular anime TV series Dragon Ball Z, which has just been renewed into Dragon Ball Super on adult swim, the character Vegeta seems to have gone under a massive growth. To those who aren't familiar with the show, Vegeta started out as a villain. Now, the creator of Dragon Ball Akira Toriyama is certainly not a heightist, despite making the main protagonist of Dragon Ball, Goku, a 5'9'' male which by Japanese standards is very tall. Toriyama often uses small stature in order to make opponents look less intimidating but then come to find out they're some of the strongest enemies in the show. It's the don't judge a book by it's cover idea, which I respect and admire. Vegeta was a character of very short stature. Here's a picture of him and his future wife Bulma:  Obviously he is quite a deal shorter than her. Mind you at this point of the show he is still evil. Now it should be noted that while Akira Toriyama is not a heightist, he is also not the animator of the TV series. That is done at TOEI by a slew of animators, that use Toriyama's comic panels as a reference for the show.  Here's a photo of Vegeta and Bulma, now married, at the end of the series Dragon Ball Z. Again, this is still Dragon Ball Z and the animation is done from the references of Toriyama's comic panels, and Toriyama has always drawn Vegeta shorter than his wife, Bulma. It's all consistent up until this point. Now Dragon Ball Super is a sequel to Dragon Ball Z, taking place right after the heroes beat the last villain in the series. It should also be noted that Dragon Ball Super is NOT based off a comic book like it's predecessor was. Toriyama had some involvement in the designs on the characters, but the rest of the art was left up to the animators at TOEI who took pretty much everything into their own hands.  This is Vegeta in Dragon Ball Super, and his newfound height. I should note one more thing before we continue. All throughout Dragon Ball Z we see Vegeta's transformation from a villain to a good guy, with him finally becoming good by the final episodes. Since Dragon Ball Super is a sequel to Dragon Ball Z, the now good Vegeta is much taller than his previous more evil self. Interesting thought. Again, this new series has very little involvement from the original creator, meaning the animators are given free game on how they wish to portray the characters.  Vegeta, now a family man, is made taller so he portrays the stereotypical "man of the house" image. Now as much as I'd like to call the animators of the new show heightists, I sincerely believe that Vegeta's height was just an oversight. Granted, Vegeta is still drawn much shorter than Goku, I feel like the animators simply didn't take it into consideration that Vegeta is supposed to be shorter than his wife. I honestly believe they didn't even give it two seconds of thought and just drew him taller because that's what they figured he should look like. Toriyama wouldn't have made this mistake because it's his characters, but TOEI's animators certainly don't care enough about height consistency. This is just one of the many examples of height flying over the tops of people's heads because they see it as a non-issue, or something that's just "not important" to fuss over. Short Vegeta was once an inspiration to people everywhere that even the shorter guy could be the most powerful fighter in the universe. But hey, at least we still got Krillin? |
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Post by Heightism Report on Mar 20, 2017 17:48:23 GMT
I don't watch cartoons, but you did a fantastic job of explaining the portrayals and also did an extremely stellar job of offering analysis.
As you said, this very well could be an oversight on the part of the new animators, so in that case, it wouldn't be intentional heightism, but the notion that they just automatically drew the strong provider of the family as a tall man when he is obviously a short character shows how ingrained it is to always assume the man is going to be taller than the woman.
However, I think that the real insight comes from asking ourselves "If Vegeta were portrayed as an incompetent bumbling idiot who skipped around with bells on his shoes and a court jester hat, would the animators accidentally draw him as a tall man?" In that case, I can just about guarantee that every portrayal of Vegeta from now to infinity would portray him as short.
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Post by Heightism Report on Mar 20, 2017 17:55:24 GMT
I also want to add that we can't overstate the importance of addressing the lack of potrayals of strong short characters in media representations, especially ones that market to kids. Disney is the absolute worst in inventing and reinforcing the Tall Prince Charming fantasy that infests the brains of most women. Kids grow up in a world where they see adults praising those for how tall they're getting, some parents even document kids growth by drawing it on the wall, and of course, it doesn't take bullies long to figure out who the best targets are, so the animators, producers, and writers of these types of series need to do a much better job of not reinforcing heightist beliefs in both covert and overt manners.
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Post by Cole Geass on Mar 20, 2017 18:04:36 GMT
I don't watch cartoons, but you did a fantastic job of explaining the portrayals and also did an extremely stellar job of offering analysis. As you said, this very well could be an oversight on the part of the new animators, so in that case, it wouldn't be intentional heightism, but the notion that they just automatically drew the strong provider of the family as a tall man when he is obviously a short character shows how ingrained it is to always assume the man is going to be taller than the woman. However, I think that the real insight comes from asking ourselves "If Vegeta were portrayed as an incompetent bumbling idiot who skipped around with bells on his shoes and a court jester hat, would the animators accidentally draw him as a tall man?" In that case, I can just about guarantee that every portrayal of Vegeta from now to infinity would portray him as short. Quite possibly. The only subtle symbolism I noticed is that when Vegeta was evil, he was portrayed as short, but as he became good he was suddenly talle r. It's also noteworthy that when shorter, he was much more self centered and less of a family man, but now that he's taller than his wife, he's taking them out on vacations and spending time with them. This could just be a coincidence since it's a sequel series and his transformation from villain to good guy is complete, but it's an interesting commentary on how people have internalized the aspect of height and how they believe it relates to personality. |
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Post by Cole Geass on Mar 20, 2017 18:14:25 GMT
I also want to add that we can't overstate the importance of addressing the lack of potrayals of strong short characters in media representations, especially ones that market to kids. Disney is the absolute worst in inventing and reinforcing the Tall Prince Charming fantasy that infests the brains of most women. Kids grow up in a world where they see adults praising those for how tall they're getting, some parents even document kids growth by drawing it on the wall, and of course, it doesn't take bullies long to figure out who the best targets are, so the animators, producers, and writers of these types of series need to do a much better job of not reinforcing heightist beliefs in both covert and overt manners. I just find it very interesting that height in Dragon Ball Z has a running theme of "don't judge a person based on their sight" because often, the shortest villain is the strongest. Vegeta, Frieza, Kid Buu, all are very small in size but are among the toughest fighters ever. It's so odd that such a theme would be thrown out the window and Vegeta was given a significant height boost in the new show most likely because that theme is not being emphasized in the new series, and therefore wasn't even thought of when the animators were working on the new designs. |
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Post by luro2020 on Mar 20, 2017 19:16:43 GMT
I also want to add that we can't overstate the importance of addressing the lack of potrayals of strong short characters in media representations, especially ones that market to kids. Disney is the absolute worst in inventing and reinforcing the Tall Prince Charming fantasy that infests the brains of most women. Kids grow up in a world where they see adults praising those for how tall they're getting, some parents even document kids growth by drawing it on the wall, and of course, it doesn't take bullies long to figure out who the best targets are, so the animators, producers, and writers of these types of series need to do a much better job of not reinforcing heightist beliefs in both covert and overt manners. I just find it very interesting that height in Dragon Ball Z has a running theme of "don't judge a person based on their sight" because often, the shortest villain is the strongest. Vegeta, Frieza, Kid Buu, all are very small in size but are among the toughest fighters ever. It's so odd that such a theme would be thrown out the window and Vegeta was given a significant height boost in the new show most likely because that theme is not being emphasized in the new series, and therefore wasn't even thought of when the animators were working on the new designs. |
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Post by luro2020 on Mar 20, 2017 19:17:30 GMT
Isn't krillen always portrayed as angry, just confirming the napoleon complex stereotype? Also disney had one show where the message was to not judge based on aesthetics , and she saw through his height and realized it was wrong to discriminate in dating, really don't remember the name.
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Post by Heightism Report on Mar 21, 2017 21:06:22 GMT
I think that they had to be consciously thinking of height in portraying the character's new role. You don't change something like that without at least some conscious thought processes going on. Or maybe the other side of the coin occurred. Maybe since they regarded the character as being a strong, competent guy, the fact that he is short never even occurred to them. They just went with their gut which is that competence and strength will always be equated with tallness. So, they could've done it intentionally, or maybe that even though this is a strong short character, they still see him as tall in their mind. Either way would be just as bad though. |
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Post by Cole Geass on Mar 21, 2017 21:11:09 GMT
Isn't krillen always portrayed as angry, just confirming the napoleon complex stereotype? Also disney had one show where the message was to not judge based on aesthetics , and she saw through his height and realized it was wrong to discriminate in dating, really don't remember the name. No, Krillin never really had that much of a napoleon complex... Thing is, aside from Goku, he's the strongest human in the world despite his short stature. He's even faced opponents who mock his size while maintaining a calm composure and simply beating them without gloating. This is all in Dragon Ball Z mind you, when it was still being written by the original creator. Despite this, it is true that he was beaten more often than Goku, but not because he was short, simply because he was Goku's sidekick. Krillin could take on the henchmen while Goku took the main villains. If anything, the commentary on Krillin could say that height shouldn't hold you back. Krillin ended up dating several beautiful women, becoming the strongest human in the world, and overall finding his place in the world. Now Dragon Ball Z Abridged on the other hand is written by VERY discriminatory people who LOVE to mention Krillin being short and how it makes him inferior. Although Krillin was seen as a comic relief (but so was everyone else, and not just for his height) in the original series, he's definitely mocked tenfold in Abridged. In the sequel to Dragon Ball Z, Krillin is a police officer who is still mocked by bad guys for his height, but remember he's the strongest in the world, and easily dispatches criminals and comes homes to a family and wife that loves him. Oddly, in Dragon Ball Super Krillin is depicted much shorter and skinnier than he is in Z, although that could just be the change in animation team. Krillin in Z is much taller but in Super is reduced greatly in height.  There's an interesting undertone to this. Krillin is an important character in Z, where he is taller. In Super he's much less important and shorter. Oddly, Vegeta is much less important in Z where he's shorter, but is a much more crucial main character in Super where he's taller. Coincidence? Probably. |
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Post by luro2020 on Mar 24, 2017 14:04:29 GMT
Isn't krillen always portrayed as angry, just confirming the napoleon complex stereotype? Also disney had one show where the message was to not judge based on aesthetics , and she saw through his height and realized it was wrong to discriminate in dating, really don't remember the name. No, Krillin never really had that much of a napoleon complex... Thing is, aside from Goku, he's the strongest human in the world despite his short stature. He's even faced opponents who mock his size while maintaining a calm composure and simply beating them without gloating. This is all in Dragon Ball Z mind you, when it was still being written by the original creator. Despite this, it is true that he was beaten more often than Goku, but not because he was short, simply because he was Goku's sidekick. Krillin could take on the henchmen while Goku took the main villains. If anything, the commentary on Krillin could say that height shouldn't hold you back. Krillin ended up dating several beautiful women, becoming the strongest human in the world, and overall finding his place in the world. Now Dragon Ball Z Abridged on the other hand is written by VERY discriminatory people who LOVE to mention Krillin being short and how it makes him inferior. Although Krillin was seen as a comic relief (but so was everyone else, and not just for his height) in the original series, he's definitely mocked tenfold in Abridged. In the sequel to Dragon Ball Z, Krillin is a police officer who is still mocked by bad guys for his height, but remember he's the strongest in the world, and easily dispatches criminals and comes homes to a family and wife that loves him. Oddly, in Dragon Ball Super Krillin is depicted much shorter and skinnier than he is in Z, although that could just be the change in animation team. Krillin in Z is much taller but in Super is reduced greatly in height. There's an interesting undertone to this. Krillin is an important character in Z, where he is taller. In Super he's much less important and shorter. Oddly, Vegeta is much less important in Z where he's shorter, but is a much more crucial main character in Super where he's taller. Coincidence? Probably. |
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Post by luro2020 on Mar 24, 2017 14:05:34 GMT
I worded that erroneously, I meant portrayed that way, not "confirming stereotypes", It was a blunder, we shouldn't worry about confirming stereotypes that imbeciles created.
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