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Post by Heightism Report on Mar 14, 2017 16:23:14 GMT
This is a thread I saw on r/short that discusses the obstacles short men face in the dating world. In addition to the widespread rejection short men experience, the bigoted ideas that often prompt the rejections, and society applauding these rejections, short men also face issues in reference to women who claim that they will date short guys. This post speaks of the unintentional transparency of women who want to sound egalitarian in regard to dating short men, but their actions tell a different story. In addition to attracting women, short men face other battles in regard to keeping them because his margin for error in the relationship will be extremely slim being that most women believe that short men are of lower social value, thus, don't deserve to display imperfections that would be ignored in regard to tall men. This poster did an excellent job of bringing the related issues to light by discussing damage control statements women will make in-order to appear open to the notion of dating short men. Post like this one are evidence that there are short men who are starting to wake up. We need more of this type of analysis
https://www.reddit.com/r/short/comments/5zcdrx/i_dont_mind_dating_short_men_my_boyfriend_just/
I was recently reading this thread on the frontpage and a few comments down below caught my attention. I have seen this type of comment multiple times throughout my years on reddit, but I have never seen so many in one place: I'm 5'6" and once dated someone 6'5", that was waaaay too tall for me, it was awkward. Other than him and my husband (6'1") everyone I dated was between 5'3" and 5'9".
"I'm just under 5'4, my husband is 6'7. I like tall guys. However, I have met a few guys my height, and one that was shorter than me, that I thought were sexy. No ifs or buts. Even if a girl usually likes tall guys, doesn't mean she won't find a shorter guy attractive/sexy. I find it's usually confidence, and being comfortable with themselves that makes the difference."
"I'm 5 foot nothing and my boyfriends have happened to mostly be tall (around 6 ft) but I didn't do that on purpose. Short guys are great. I don't know how this keeps happening"
"I always loved shorter guys. And a short build can be sexy. Incidentally I ended up with a husband who's about a foot taller than me. I think a lot of women truly don't care, they just aren't the ones who are overly vocal about it."
"It would be nice if more of us liked short guys. I didn't care about height at all, I'm 5'4 so typically guys ar taller than me but I did date a couple close to my height and all the way up to 6'5 (my husband). I don't look at height I look at the person, just so happens I fell in love with a tall guy."
This one is even worse than the others somehow: As a woman who is 6'1" I will never understand girls who say they won't ever date a shorter guy. For me it's almost the only option. Add on that I always wear heels. I enjoy being tall."
She says she has no option but to date shorter guys, then she posts this: "Ok so? It's a societal expectation set upon people that governs who we can be attracted to and people actually follow this norm, it's bloody stupid. I've gone out with guys who were 5'4" and absolutely amazing boyfriends and two people taller than me one of which was an abusive arsehole. Height means shit."
Wow! A really tall girl who doesn't mind dating shorter guys, seems like we've found an impossible unicorn. But alas, it was too good to be true:
"My current boyfriend is 6'4" and it's wonderful being close to each other's height"
Now, these women can date tall guys, they don't need to date shorter men exclusively, I am sincerely just trying to understand. Why would these women post these comments when the original OP was complaining that his wife of 18 years left him because he was too short? Are they trying to help short guys by saying that they are/were attracted to short guys? Are they simply trying to give the "correct" answer to the chain of comments by agreeing that short guys are good too (and on the process making themselves feel better for not supposedly being shallow)? Or are they bragging about the height of their SO? Is it a complete lack of awareness because they've never been (or will never be) in our situation? How the hell are short guys supposed to feel better about their chances in the dating world when even girls who profess their love for short guys end up with tall guys? I am sincerely trying to understand what they are trying to accomplish with such comments, because it makes absolutely no sense in my mind to post things like these replies (again the OP was complaining that his wife left him because he was too short). So what do you guys think? Why are women posting these comments that do not help shorter men feel better at all? Do they really not get what the issue is?
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Post by Luro2020 on Mar 15, 2017 17:33:39 GMT
Yes using all of the typical tactics I know confident short guys, everybody faces issues, bringing their personal life to derail conversation gets old really fast. I was in a hospital, and even a short guy who understood the tactics used against us told me i Need to change my delivery, but we've already accomadated enough, the status quo doesn't need more counter examples to derail, silence us, and so on. I also found heightismreport, that when i would explain i don't fight heightism because of my height or my issues, simply explaining it's a prejudice that goes unacknowledged and it's up to society to change their bigoted views, they backed into their corners because their usual platitudes and examples didn't phase me. I think most women want to keep short people as the fallback group, some don't realize they have an obvious preference and heightist bias for tall men, even though they even say they prefer tall men, I think it depends on the women, but the vast majority are trying to provide examples and bring personal anecdotes into it because they know it's harder for us to make our voices heard when they do so, women are people and most of them don't like being challenged on heightism.
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Post by Luro2020 on Mar 15, 2017 17:37:47 GMT
I sincerely believe they are trying to seem less shallow by claiming to date short men, and seeing as they show the usual symptoms of being bigoted (blaming short men, overlapping other prejudices, giving examples in their life despite the plentiful amount of studies showing that short men are discriminated against) shows us they are giving the correct answer to keep in line with the status quo and pacify the OP.
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Post by luro2020 on Mar 15, 2017 20:34:23 GMT
For a more specific answer, they know they can get away with projecting conflating ideas, and get away with it because of the normal derailing tactics that we face and all know about In my above post. I believe it all pertains to the deeper ideas that the media's perception of short men has gotten worse, and women are typically followers, so they act accordingly and internalize these beliefs, and that's where the lack of logic and women's cognitive dissonance comes from, but you have to wonder how their psychology is so affected that they don't realize they literally just said two things that are complete contradictions, what planet are these women on like the examples in the post that "prefer" short guys but end up"with a tall guy to be this devoid of logic to not even realize they say this, the ones who genuinely don't understand seem to be lost causes, because they are under such powerful mind control of the media reinforcing the platitudes, heightist ideas, and beliefs and symbolization of short men as inferior. It's almost like these people aren't in control of their conscious decisions and need rehab or some strong mental treatment, for this level of cognitive dissonance caused by these issues.
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Post by Heightism Report on Mar 15, 2017 20:52:49 GMT
I just checked out this thread and I also found an analysis of it to be worthwhile. Women sometimes want to appear "egalitarian" by making "gestures" that might indicate that they don't have any bias toward short men. About 12 years ago I was contacted by a writer (a woman) who read my original essay on shortsupport.org . I spoke with her over the phone. I actually asked her about HER choices in men. She made very similar statements to the ones made by many of these girls/women. I asked her about her CURRENT guy. He was Tall. It seems that girls/women sometimes want to appear as if they're not biased in favor of Tall men, by stating that they ONCE dated a short guy. This lets them "off the hook" so-to-speak. They can say, "OH see! I once dated a short guy. That make me totally egalitarian!!!" But what they're saying is incredibly obvious. They dated a short guy once or twice, and they pay lip service to "egalitarianism", but "OH gosh it feels so good to have a guy I can look up to"! I have no problems with girls/women stating their preference for taller guys. Men everywhere on the planet are taller than women - in every single society - from the Amazon jungle on up. The fact that men are taller than women everywhere dictates women's preferences to a large extent. What I DO have a problem with, is the depiction in the MAINSTREAM MEDIA of short men as unworthy of female companionship or anything else for that matter. This negative depiction('s) in TV shows, sitcoms, movies, News, articles (there are plenty of articles on SupportForTheshort.org) etc. is what is driving much of the new hatred for short men I think. I also think that much of short womens' seeming rejection of men who are inches taller than they are, but not Tall enough for them is driven by the media depictions of short men. The MEDIA is responsible for this. This is the same media that acts as to support EVERY other Group that claims discrimination. I have to confess that the media does not surprise me at all with any of their biased depictions. Even the husband and wife director and producer that made the "documentary" that I had a part in, back in 2006, depicted me in a way that I did not necessarily appreciate. This is a major part of the problem. The mainstream media has been a "friend" to all these groups claiming discrimination over the course of the past 50+ years. However, they've proved to be the enemy of short men. I don't see they're behavior changing though. In the "early days" there were some articles about real discrimination and prejudice, but now most of these articles seem to be about women's preferences in dating. This is not about dating. Short people, and short men in particular, are targets of the media, and since I know the media very well, I know they target men in general. (Especially CERTAIN men) Short men are easy targets. Anyone have any observations that they'd like to add? I certainly agree with everything you say here 100%. In regard to women trying to seem egalitarian and just "coincidentally" ending-up with a tall guy, they're obviously lying in many instances because it's quite a logical leap to state that these women are just accidentally winding-up with guys who are taller than 90% of the population. The media is definitely a horrible influence in portraying short men as inferior to tall men in every way, but another part of the issue is the modern "we deserve it all" narrative that is reinforced in women. Being that they deserve it all, they feel that they deserve the men who have the greatest amount of social value in the world and tall men are considered the whole kit and caboodle in-regard to having it all from social status, they're beneficiaries of Prince Charming portrayals, and they receive a halo effect by being rewarded with beliefs that they deserve respect and prestige, thus, women feel like they deserve to have a piece of that pie as well. A short man just won't cut-it in their eyes and is an egregious affront to their pursuit to "have it all." This definitely transcends dating and is not just about physical preference; It's actually a situation where short men are considered unfit to deliver in areas that have nothing to do with height whatsoever. That's not preference, it's bigotry.
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Post by Heightism Report on Mar 15, 2017 20:55:05 GMT
Another thing that needs to be brought-up is when women say that they "don't mind dating short guys," they are often referring to men who are taller than them when they're wearing their favorite heels. To these women, objectively short men(especially the men who are shorter than them) don't even rate manhood, and they're not even thinking about them when they speak about "short" guys.
Also, no self-respecting man should put too much faith in a woman who merely "doesn't mind" being with them. That doesn't sound like a very promising preposition, it sounds like the short guy is going to act as a temporary space filler until the tall guy she "deserves" comes along. We have to remember that women are the gatekeepers of the romantic marketplace, and they will date guys for many reasons, thus, as short men, we have to understand the warning signs in regard to being used as a temporary space filler or a warm body for temporary usage.
And since I mentioned the issue of high heels, I need to state that if you're factoring in the fact that you don't want to date someone because you don't feel like they match your shoes, you're not just exercising a preference at that point, you're being bigoted to the point of it being ridiculous. Women discuss this heels preference as if it's just part of nature though, and people accept it without giving it a second thought. We're supposed to be better than this as a society, but we're nowhere close if we're going to sign-off on women placing footwear over the value of someone as a human being.
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Post by luro2020 on Mar 15, 2017 20:58:59 GMT
Another gem "it's called "virtue signaling". They are signaling to others on the forum that they have the virtuous trait of not caring about height/looks. "It's what's on the inside that counts XD" Sorry toots, your actions don't match your words." permalinkembed. Short guys do seem to be waking up. This poster did a great job analyzing that it is false virtue signaling, and on reddit it's easy to do that, especially when they are signaling a group who has a lower margin of error, they can afford to damage control because they (the status quo, in particular, women in this case) determine the narrative, and there are few women who are being unintentionally transparent,they are keeping short men in their corner by doing this intentionally,as I alluded to earlier. This is my analysis of the damage control and the virtue signaling.
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Post by luro2020 on Mar 15, 2017 21:04:38 GMT
HeightismReport, I also did a paper and it shows women have issues dating men 5'5 and under, my source was Stature and stigma by Leslie Martel and Henry biller. To women,5'6 is short, 5'5 and under is expendable and subconciously perceived as boys/women by them. The real short guys who fall within 2 std deviations and are medically normal but are in >5th percentile (that 5'2-5'5" group) face the negative judgements and have not even reached "manhood", and they need men to be at least 2 inches taller,meaning on average 5'6" and taller.Are those are the short men that you are alluding to?
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Post by Heightism Report on Mar 15, 2017 21:14:21 GMT
Glad to see that you've returned, Luro!
Yes, you are right about them using their anecdotes as a means to discredit empirical evidence. The thing about status-quo groups is they won't ever give us the microphone because it has to always be about them. If we discuss the fact that women almost universally prefer tall males, they'll cook-up a strawman stating that we "feel like women owe us something" and they'll turn themselves into the victims. Status-quo groups can not stand, and will not tolerate being scrutinized in even the most minor ways, and their anecdotes that they use to play damage control will always be given more credibility than anything we say or do. In every heightism discussion, people want to scold us, patronize us, or lecture us. If they truly wanted to help with our issues, they would actually listen to us. Instead though, they just spout platitudes and use damage control tactics to keep themselves from feeling like they have to do the work of reassessing their beliefs about short men.
I agree that there are short guys who are starting to wake-up. I've noticed that just recently, and hope that it continues. We can certainly use the help, and as frustrating as addressing heightism is, it's certainly nice to see that whispers are starting to creep in from the shadows.
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Post by Heightism Report on Mar 15, 2017 21:21:39 GMT
HeightismReport, I also did a paper and it shows women have issues dating men 5'5 and under, my source was Stature and stigma by Leslie Martel and Henry biller. To women,5'6 is short, 5'5 and under is expendable and subconciously perceived as boys/women by them. The real short guys who fall within 2 std deviations and are medically normal but are in >5th percentile (that 5'2-5'5" group) face the negative judgements and have not even reached "manhood", and they need men to be at least 2 inches taller,meaning on average 5'6" and taller.Are those are the short men that you are alluding to? That group is certainly on the receiving end of all of the effects of heightism, especially the emasculating facets of heightism. I was referring to all men who get rejected based on not being tall enough to match a woman's high heels. This group of men can be any height because the height of the woman is what sets the standard for how tall a guy has to be in order to be "acceptable." That group of guys you mentioned(5'2-5'5) are either shorter or barely taller than the average woman, so they would be instantaneous rejections by the heels queens, in addition to the stigmas and hatred from "not being real men.'
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Post by luro2020 on Mar 15, 2017 21:24:00 GMT
Read all of my posts in this thread heightismreport, am I not making sense? You didn't ever seem to fully agree with them.
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Post by Heightism Report on Mar 15, 2017 21:26:12 GMT
I didn't disagree with anything you said
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Post by luro2020 on Mar 15, 2017 21:29:53 GMT
I was just observing since you alluded to Joe, I am trying to be your strongest ally and you didn't provide commentary on my earlier posts, it just seemed like you weren't as ecstatic about my posts as you were to joe's first response.
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Post by Heightism Report on Mar 15, 2017 21:43:09 GMT
I was just observing since you alluded to Joe, I am trying to be your strongest ally and you didn't provide commentary on my earlier posts, it just seemed like you weren't as ecstatic about my posts as you were to joe's first response. You made good posts and I welcomed you back to the forum and offered feedback and elaborations. You're welcome here and I appreciate that you're contributing. I wish more people were putting forth the amount of effort you are. Let's try to keep the META stuff to a minimum and keep the focus on heightism.
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Post by luro2020 on Mar 15, 2017 21:45:02 GMT
Yes sorry, I know i almost derailed it to trivial matters.
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